“He just hasn’t met the ‘right’ woman yet” is the oldest excuse in the book for men who not only remain single well into their forties but who act irresponsibly and refuse to grow up.
I have never understood why women try to pressure and shame men into commitment. Growing up doesn't mean getting married or commiting to a woman. When it comes to dating it seems as if men can't have standards or exercise their options if women perceive these standards and options as detrimental to their own chances of securing commitment.
That's exactly the point. Men don't need to commit to a woman to be mature, but when their immaturity is excused by "he just hasn't met the right woman," we're placing on women the responsibility to "civilize" men and saying men can't take responsibility for their own lives. That's definitely not true. Saying that an irresponsible man is only missing "the right woman" to set him on the right path is to think very little of his potential to take care of himself.
I'm confused, what exactly is immature or irresponsible about a man remaining single? Which irresponsible or immature behaviours are you discussing here, it's all very vague
Divorce is 80 - 20 (ish) with women initiating four times as often as men! Then it makes sense to me if a man is four times more reluctant to enter into marriage. He knows that when he is commited, he is commited for life. (At least more so than a woman.) He knows he has more to lose.
In "the-good-old-days" men had to get married to get sex, now he can either get plenty of sex without commitment (if he has high enough mate-value), or he can get zero sex, if he has low mate-value, or even when married, (after a couple of years).
Further, he knows that if he enters into marriage, he will be relegated to playing a "bit-part".
From PEW:
"The survey finds that in 43% of all couples it’s the woman who makes decisions in more areas than the man. By contrast, men make more of the decisions in only about a quarter (26%) of all couples. And about three-in-ten couples (31%) split decision-making responsibilities equally."
Making most of the decisions isn't necessarily a privilege. The mental load women often handle in marriage, which is often called emotional labor, is a big factor in divorce. It can be convenient to outsource decision-making to a partner and reap the benefits of their promptness and decisiveness. I wonder how many men are "relegated to playing a "bit-part", how many are being purposefully omissive, and how many don't bother because they know someone else will get to it for them.
As for the data that women initiate about 70% of all divorces, it often refers to seeking a lawyer and filling out paperwork, which again, women tend to be more prompt to get to than men. It doesn't say much about the couple's relationship dynamics or what precipitated the divorce. When it comes to divorce, women often act as that doctor who calls the time of death, but in most cases, both husband and wife had a hand at killing the patient.
And let's not forget wives who are escaping abusive husbands. If men tend to be more abusive and violent than women, it makes perfect sense that more women than men will file for divorce.
I almost forgot. As for the notion that men have more to lose from divorce than women, I wrote a detailed response to that a while ago. Here's the friend link so you don't have to deal with Medium's paywall:
I just noticed your pew research refference is from 2008. That's almost twenty years ago. Fortunetely, more recent data tells us that couples have been building more equitable partnerships on all fronts. If you're interested in this subject, I suggest reading The All or Nothing Marriage, by Eli Finkel. Great read.
First of all, thank you for opening your comments. I hope I come across as respectful, even when I disagree.
To your first reply - I understand that divorce is complicated; "a messy business" as you write in you Medium article (thanks for sharing).
And even though it seemed perfectly clear to me when I wrote my reply, I see in hindsight that I could have been more explicit about my intention with replying. What I was trying to say was that from the outside; marriage SEEMS (or could be seen) as a raw deal for men; divorce rates and the perception (and sometimes reality) of losing the house and the kids, the perception (and sometimes reality) of taking a financial hit. Further the perception of female hypergamy - she'll leave you for "Chad" by the drop of a hat.
I accept from your article (Medium) that these are misconcepsions, and that it is not "all women", not even close, (but there are some, and we all(?) (or maybe it is just me) have that friend, or those friends that have that very personal experience; left uncomprehending and devastated, moving back into their parents basement (or into police custody, slapped with a restraining order and allegations of abuse.) Men going in to depression when hopes, dreams and future (seemingly) is taken away.)
I accept that these are exceptions, and outliers, but jeez, the power of stories!
I don't want to go back and forth on decision-making in the marriage, or the toll it takes, but I believe that coin has two sides. And insisting on making decisions (or at least having a say) when it comes to child rearing and "what is best for our kid" takes a brave soul, when a lot of what you have heard from society is that you are at best inept and at worst toxic in all matters relational.
I have read "The all or nothing marriage". I agree, great book! (My wife had a laughing fit when I explained how we (she and I) are "androgynous academics", (we are "literally" neither (still we've been happily married for 30 years!) a term I love!) ("The all or nothing marriage" is in my bookshelf next to "The boy crisis", Warren Farrel, "Of Boys and Men", Richard Reeves and "Is there anything good about men", Roy Baumeister - books I recommend).
Anyway, again, thanks for letting me "back in"! We all need (to learn) to love better. Understanding (or at least trying to understand) each other with biases, misconceptions and all, goes at least a little way.
“He just hasn’t met the ‘right’ woman yet” is the oldest excuse in the book for men who not only remain single well into their forties but who act irresponsibly and refuse to grow up.
I have never understood why women try to pressure and shame men into commitment. Growing up doesn't mean getting married or commiting to a woman. When it comes to dating it seems as if men can't have standards or exercise their options if women perceive these standards and options as detrimental to their own chances of securing commitment.
That's exactly the point. Men don't need to commit to a woman to be mature, but when their immaturity is excused by "he just hasn't met the right woman," we're placing on women the responsibility to "civilize" men and saying men can't take responsibility for their own lives. That's definitely not true. Saying that an irresponsible man is only missing "the right woman" to set him on the right path is to think very little of his potential to take care of himself.
I'm confused, what exactly is immature or irresponsible about a man remaining single? Which irresponsible or immature behaviours are you discussing here, it's all very vague
I'll try to be more precise next time.
Divorce is 80 - 20 (ish) with women initiating four times as often as men! Then it makes sense to me if a man is four times more reluctant to enter into marriage. He knows that when he is commited, he is commited for life. (At least more so than a woman.) He knows he has more to lose.
In "the-good-old-days" men had to get married to get sex, now he can either get plenty of sex without commitment (if he has high enough mate-value), or he can get zero sex, if he has low mate-value, or even when married, (after a couple of years).
Further, he knows that if he enters into marriage, he will be relegated to playing a "bit-part".
From PEW:
"The survey finds that in 43% of all couples it’s the woman who makes decisions in more areas than the man. By contrast, men make more of the decisions in only about a quarter (26%) of all couples. And about three-in-ten couples (31%) split decision-making responsibilities equally."
(https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2008/09/25/women-call-the-shots-at-home-public-mixed-on-gender-roles-in-jobs/)
I don't want to limit womens options in any way, but actions have consequences. You can't both have your cake and eat it.
Making most of the decisions isn't necessarily a privilege. The mental load women often handle in marriage, which is often called emotional labor, is a big factor in divorce. It can be convenient to outsource decision-making to a partner and reap the benefits of their promptness and decisiveness. I wonder how many men are "relegated to playing a "bit-part", how many are being purposefully omissive, and how many don't bother because they know someone else will get to it for them.
As for the data that women initiate about 70% of all divorces, it often refers to seeking a lawyer and filling out paperwork, which again, women tend to be more prompt to get to than men. It doesn't say much about the couple's relationship dynamics or what precipitated the divorce. When it comes to divorce, women often act as that doctor who calls the time of death, but in most cases, both husband and wife had a hand at killing the patient.
And let's not forget wives who are escaping abusive husbands. If men tend to be more abusive and violent than women, it makes perfect sense that more women than men will file for divorce.
I almost forgot. As for the notion that men have more to lose from divorce than women, I wrote a detailed response to that a while ago. Here's the friend link so you don't have to deal with Medium's paywall:
https://medium.com/sexography/highly-educated-women-are-more-likely-to-ask-for-divorce-and-other-myths-that-need-to-die-dfce2b53c9cc?sk=603ff71325f760968acb2d9804c21f95
I just noticed your pew research refference is from 2008. That's almost twenty years ago. Fortunetely, more recent data tells us that couples have been building more equitable partnerships on all fronts. If you're interested in this subject, I suggest reading The All or Nothing Marriage, by Eli Finkel. Great read.
First of all, thank you for opening your comments. I hope I come across as respectful, even when I disagree.
To your first reply - I understand that divorce is complicated; "a messy business" as you write in you Medium article (thanks for sharing).
And even though it seemed perfectly clear to me when I wrote my reply, I see in hindsight that I could have been more explicit about my intention with replying. What I was trying to say was that from the outside; marriage SEEMS (or could be seen) as a raw deal for men; divorce rates and the perception (and sometimes reality) of losing the house and the kids, the perception (and sometimes reality) of taking a financial hit. Further the perception of female hypergamy - she'll leave you for "Chad" by the drop of a hat.
I accept from your article (Medium) that these are misconcepsions, and that it is not "all women", not even close, (but there are some, and we all(?) (or maybe it is just me) have that friend, or those friends that have that very personal experience; left uncomprehending and devastated, moving back into their parents basement (or into police custody, slapped with a restraining order and allegations of abuse.) Men going in to depression when hopes, dreams and future (seemingly) is taken away.)
I accept that these are exceptions, and outliers, but jeez, the power of stories!
I don't want to go back and forth on decision-making in the marriage, or the toll it takes, but I believe that coin has two sides. And insisting on making decisions (or at least having a say) when it comes to child rearing and "what is best for our kid" takes a brave soul, when a lot of what you have heard from society is that you are at best inept and at worst toxic in all matters relational.
I have read "The all or nothing marriage". I agree, great book! (My wife had a laughing fit when I explained how we (she and I) are "androgynous academics", (we are "literally" neither (still we've been happily married for 30 years!) a term I love!) ("The all or nothing marriage" is in my bookshelf next to "The boy crisis", Warren Farrel, "Of Boys and Men", Richard Reeves and "Is there anything good about men", Roy Baumeister - books I recommend).
Anyway, again, thanks for letting me "back in"! We all need (to learn) to love better. Understanding (or at least trying to understand) each other with biases, misconceptions and all, goes at least a little way.